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Why the violence in England?

 
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amapola
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 5:51 pm    Post subject: Why the violence in England? Reply with quote

Although in no way condoning the mindless and destructive mob violence going on in England at the moment, I heard an interesting commentary by a political scientist, who has been studying youth in Europe for 3years, on some of reasons behind it.
The shooting of Mark Duggan really has very little to do with the riots and looting that have followed.

Many youth there today are feeling disconnected and disempowered.
England has sky rocketing unemployment with youth unemployment running at a record high.
Many live in youth saturated suburbs, where turf wars reign and the average outdoor play area for a 12 year old is the size of a kitchen table.
Many have no educational opportunities. The government has removed the education allowance for hardship for 16 18 year olds, raised tertiary fees and capped educational access. Kids are feeling cornered, with nowhere to go economically and with no future.
7% of the population attend private schools and these 7% dominate cabinet and make up 43% of university attendance.
England has the highest social immobility in the OECD with little likelihood of an improvement in quality of life with their outcome likely to be worse than their parents.

I'm not offering this as an excuse, but it's really been a time-bomb waiting to be ignited.
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REVOLUTIONalreadyUNDERWAY
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biJgILxGK0o
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amapola
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

-enjoyIncubus- wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biJgILxGK0o


What a condescending interviewer! She kept talking over the top of him all the time!!
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jamess
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

there are too many theories. its all in the parenting/upbringing.

these people made choice to do what they did. weather they felt a justification to commit these crimes or not is a whole different argument, but it all lies with the parents.
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daydream set
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Why the violence in England? Reply with quote

I don't think it lies with the parents at all.

I think it lies with society.
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amapola
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't want to be a bleeding heart about this whole situation, I think an individual is ultimately responsible for his own actions. A lot of the rioters are just little shits looking for any excuse to be violent and destructive.
But parenting and community, which ideally should be an extension of family, have a huge impact on children's values such as respect for others and property.
What concerns me most is the sense of hopelessness felt by so many of today's youth.
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Look_Alive
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure, Society may be an indirect cause of the riots, but most of the kids rioting weren't doing it for a political point, just to apparantly show the police that they can do what they want. There's a whole 'fuck tha police!' view from the rioters, rather than trying to bring about change in society, which is what the Student Protests/Riots were about earlier in the year/late 2010.

Right now on TV there's a press conference with a Malaysian Student who was injured in the riots when trying to get to a friend's house, and was mugged by some people pretending to help him (here's the video for anyone who hasn't seen it - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14456065 ). There's no social reasons behind those actions, it's just mindless violence.
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daydream set
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dunno. I think the fact that many of these youth probably believe - quite correctly - that they're perpetually in jeopardy of being the next Mark Duggan at the hands of police. That might have something to do with it.

The fact that peaceful protests preceded a heavy-handed police response might have something to do with it.

The fact that austerity measures have been implemented in the wake of rampant unemployment in the country, and which heavily affects these areas. That might have something to do with it.

The fact that that these demographics are politically disfranchised might have something to do with it.

At the very least, it's a lot easier to wrap one's head around than "it's the parents' fault." least of all because it seems to happen (in whichever country it happens) only in poor neighborhoods and only when anger at the police - the supposed arm of justice - reaches a boiling point.
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amapola
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Look_Alive wrote:

Right now on TV there's a press conference with a Malaysian Student who was injured in the riots when trying to get to a friend's house, and was mugged by some people pretending to help him (here's the video for anyone who hasn't seen it - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14456065 ). There's no social reasons behind those actions, it's just mindless violence.

We saw that here too, he ended up in hospital with a broken jaw and lost teeth.

Chris, you make a very good point, but it's all really a vicious circle. If you have high concentrations of the poor and unemployed, often with absentee parenting, you're going to get high crime rates, gangs, drugs, racial violence etc, hence a greater police presence. You get a lot of tension and it becomes an us or them mentality.
I have always thought is a dangerous thing for similar socio-economic groups to be concentrated into one area.
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jamess
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

this is just pure criminality, nothing else.

stop trying to justify what has happened, burglary, arson, theft & now murder. you can not justify murder because you feel 'let down by the government'.
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daydream set
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oh my bad, jamesss.

i didn't realize that when a detective searches for motive that he's implying that the action was justified - or that the victim(s) had it coming.

plain and simple: shit like this always happens in socioeconomically disadvantaged parts of society - regardless of the country. and it tends to happen after peaceful actions are ignored and directly because of some injustice which triggers it - it's a fact that can't be ignored. and while there are obviously different points of view as to "what is to be done?", to sit on a pulpit and denounce it as "pure criminality" isn't gonna fix it or make it better. it's just gonna happen again. as someone else said, vicious cycle.

oh, and mark duggan will probably never see justice. just as oscar grant in oakland will probably never see justice. along with countless others. the police do kill people and they do target the disfranchised segments of society.
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amapola
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

daydream set wrote:


i didn't realize that when a detective searches for motive that he's implying that the action was justified - or that the victim(s) had it coming.


Exactly. Understanding why something happens, and condoning or justifying what happens, are not synonymous.
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softboiled eggy
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

growing up poor/not having money the to buy the latest and greatest, does not justify looting/rioting/assault/murder.

I will agree that many young people in this city find themselves in a desperate situation. I listen to young guys on the train talking about their struggles to find jobs in the job scarce climate we're in. a lot of companies, including the one I work for, are still downsizing where they can. companies who are hiring, are less likely to hire youngsters with little or no experience. how do you get a foot in the door when the competition is so great, when you lack the money/support to further educate yourself, and when a lot of unskilled jobs are going to immigrants/or people who have been made redundant from skilled jobs?

at the same time, I do see young (black) guys being targeted during stop-and-search inspections by police outside stations. and sure, it's teenagers stabbing teenagers we read about in the papers every other day, but if you have an unlucky day where you get stopped 4 or 5 times, you're going to start getting annoyed/angry. you might want to throw something at someone.

after saying all that, I still think the total lack of respect for private property and the way the rioters endagered innocent people's lives, and destroyed many people's livelihoods can not be justified. I read about one woman's house being burned down with her cats locked inside, as well as the musical instruments she makes her living out of. Mad Sad
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daydream set
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

softboiled eggy wrote:
after saying all that, I still think the total lack of respect for private property and the way the rioters endagered innocent people's lives, and destroyed many people's livelihoods can not be justified.

But it goes back to the issues you presented in your previous paragraphs. Unemployment and disfranchisement are systemic ills that will always cause these scenarios. It has nothing to do with morality or ethics because history shows time and time again that when economic situation's become hopeless or desperate, people become demoralized and desperate. Saying that they can't be justified (or, more generally, that people are responsible for their actions) misses the point because that's obvious.

What I find most aggravating is not that rioters (and those that take out their frustrations through individual acts of violence) see consequences for their actions. It's that those that created the system (and for who the system is set up to benefit) don't see consequences for the lives and livelihoods they destroy - because what they do is maddeningly considered legal.

And perhaps what's overlooked more than anything is that the economic decline continues to affect people negatively - the vast majority of whom, rather than lash out, just accept it as an unalterable fact of life rather than the systemic symptom that it is. And the fact that the rioters are punished makes them more timid to stand up to the oppressors in positive and constructive ways.
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softboiled eggy
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

daydream set wrote:
What I find most aggravating is not that rioters (and those that take out their frustrations through individual acts of violence) see consequences for their actions. It's that those that created the system (and for who the system is set up to benefit) don't see consequences for the lives and livelihoods they destroy - because what they do is maddeningly considered legal.

And perhaps what's overlooked more than anything is that the economic decline continues to affect people negatively - the vast majority of whom, rather than lash out, just accept it as an unalterable fact of life rather than the systemic symptom that it is. And the fact that the rioters are punished makes them more timid to stand up to the oppressors in positive and constructive ways.


best post sofar.
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BlinkBeat
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I'm from Wales, and automatically programmed to fling abuse at the English, I probably can't give an unbiased opinion on it.
The violence situation in Wales is more often or not drug or alcohol induced. But the underlying problems of poor education and, consequently, high unemployment figures, is pretty apparent. Drugs and alcohol just act as a catalyst in speeding up the process of people kicking seven shades of crap out of each other.
What isn't excusable though, despite all the problems that the working class face in the UK and around the world, is that complete and utter brain dead idiots like the EDL are allowed to congregate and express their "opinions".
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